Canon Discussion: Contradictions & Interpretations

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Re: Canon Discussion: Contradictions & Interpretations

Post by luctheminecrafter on Sat Sep 12, 2015 1:25 am

Kellsthrophe was a station that they asked the railway consultant for a name. Same goes for Culdee Caves. That was all due to one guy who wanted to make the show a teensy bit better, not Sharon Miller or the other bad writers she hired.

Sam Wilkinson is my favorite person out of the writing team of the era: BY FAR!
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Re: Canon Discussion: Contradictions & Interpretations

Post by DonaldDouglasandToby6 on Mon Sep 14, 2015 3:50 am

Why? What's wrong with everyone else on the current team?

Also, when did Miller have a Railway Consultant? And Miller wasn't even around in Season 8!
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Re: Canon Discussion: Contradictions & Interpretations

Post by luctheminecrafter on Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:47 pm

Wait, Wilkinson was hired in 2012, but I know there was a railway consultant. THEY ASKED THAT GUY WHOEVER HE IS!
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Re: Canon Discussion: Contradictions & Interpretations

Post by ThomasSirHandel on Tue Sep 29, 2015 3:22 am

For those wondering why I consider Seasons 1-4 a separate canon from TAB and the reconnected series.

Comparing Season 1 and TAB

-Thomas and James were shown in their current liveries in the beginning of Season 1.
-Thomas originally did not care about Henry's problems in Season 1.
-Thomas was the engine who tried pushing Henry out of the tunnel but in TAB the events of The Sad of Henry occurred before Thomas arrived.
-Henry originally overcame is fear of the rain when he was let out of the tunnel but in TAB he over came his fear after Thomas arrived.
-The coaches used in Thomas' Train were originally express coaches but in TAB their red branch line coaches.
-Thomas originally did not try chasing James during the runaway in Season 1.
-Thomas originally took James to Tidmouth Sheds, but in TAB he took him to the Steamworks.

Biggest difference that fans like to complain about

-Henry was in his old shape in Season 1 but in his new shape in TAB.

The only thing that could be the same is Thomas arriving after James in both canons despite how the narrator said how James had his crash on his first day in the Season 1 version of Thomas and the Breakdown Train since James was seen before then.

In Blue Mountain Mystery

-Thomas tried backing out of the mine but didn't in Season 1 and he originally knocked his driver and fireman off the footplate but didn't in BMM.
-Percy originally crashed into the trousers at the harbour in Season 3 but in BMM he crashed into them at Wellsworth Station and he already had his permanent lamp which he did not receive a permanent lamp until Seasons 5 or 6.

So yeah it's more like re-writing the episodes and putting the originals in another canon rather then retelling them and for the Allcroft haters, Brenner completely re-wrote the stories and flash banks differently too like how Allcroft re-wrote stories differently in Seasons 3-4.
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Re: Canon Discussion: Contradictions & Interpretations

Post by DonaldDouglasandToby6 on Tue Sep 29, 2015 3:25 am

I think the difference is S3-4 were still at the stage where they were still adapting Awdry's stories (And he was still around back then). The Adventure Begins was made as a tribute; there were obviously going to be changes. It's 2015.

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Re: Canon Discussion: Contradictions & Interpretations

Post by ThomasSirHandel on Tue Sep 29, 2015 3:29 am

I know Brenner was around back then and that there was going to be differences in TAB when it was first announced. I was just explaining why I consider Seasons 1-4 a separate canon from the current series.
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Re: Canon Discussion: Contradictions & Interpretations

Post by DonaldDouglasandToby6 on Tue Sep 29, 2015 3:32 am

No, I was referring more to the last bit you said about "Allcroft haters". And I saw Awdry was around, not Brenner (Even if he was.)

And sure, maybe it is a different canon (Which is still pointlessly complicated.)

Toz76 wrote:So? I can sort out contradictions as they arise. I never said they happened in that order anyway.

It kind of bugs me how people just ignore things that contradict with their ideas of perfection. We have to take the good with the bad.

I agree; I don't really care that much about canon as long as episodes don't blatantly say stuff didn't happen before.
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Re: Canon Discussion: Contradictions & Interpretations

Post by OneJ_ on Sun Nov 01, 2015 2:12 am

Y'all, I've found something a little bit interesting after a little over a month of silence. In Sodor's Legend of the Lost Treasure, remember the part when Sir Topham Hatt asked about the treasure being 16th Century (1501-1600)? Now check this link out from the Wiki page of Captain Calles: http://ttte.wikia.com/wiki/Captain_Calles

The wiki page states that the events of Captain Calles happened over 500 years before the movie's events. This means that SLOLT takes place during the 21st Century. What do you think of this conclusion?
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Re: Canon Discussion: Contradictions & Interpretations

Post by Toz76 on Sun Nov 01, 2015 4:04 am

YES! I WAS RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT! Razz

That's certainly interesting, although one wonders why Sodor hasn't developed more, and why no oneowns a cell phone, and how Awdry de-aged thirty years, and where are all the tourists come to see the famous engines, and...
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Re: Canon Discussion: Contradictions & Interpretations

Post by ThomasSirHandel on Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:53 am

For the Awdry part I'm guessing the TV Series is set in an alternate universe were he's still alive living on Sodor and no one ages on Sodor which can also explain why certain engines still act young or why there's only one Sir Topham Hatt in the TV Series. For the technology part I'm guessing Sodor is one of those places where technology isn't as advance as other places though it would be interesting to see someone with a cell phone in the TV Series at least in my opinion. It also be interesting to see them using colored photography or someone with a laptop.
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Re: Canon Discussion: Contradictions & Interpretations

Post by Doc Knickerbocker on Sun Nov 01, 2015 6:24 pm

ThomasSirHandel wrote:For those wondering why I consider Seasons 1-4 a separate canon from TAB and the reconnected series.

Comparing Season 1 and TAB

-Thomas and James were shown in their current liveries in the beginning of Season 1.
-Thomas originally did not care about Henry's problems in Season 1.
-Thomas was the engine who tried pushing Henry out of the tunnel but in TAB the events of The Sad of Henry occurred before Thomas arrived.
-Henry originally overcame is fear of the rain when he was let out of the tunnel but in TAB he over came his fear after Thomas arrived.
-The coaches used in Thomas' Train were originally express coaches but in TAB their red branch line coaches.
-Thomas originally did not try chasing James during the runaway in Season 1.
-Thomas originally took James to Tidmouth Sheds, but in TAB he took him to the Steamworks.

Biggest difference that fans like to complain about

-Henry was in his old shape in Season 1 but in his new shape in TAB.
I'd like to point out some things here that may have been due to budgets and mistakes, rather than being a separate universe/canon/what have you.
- Thomas and James ~ Liveries - Isn't it possible that this is simply due to budget, rather than canon difference? Brenner, in TAB, may have simply intended to make things similar to the original stories when S1 wasn't able to.
- Just my take on this, but isn't it possible that Thomas did care about Henry's problems? TAB seems to go into more depth than S1 did, given the 4-5 minute timeframe S1 adhered to.
- Fair point.
- Henry could've had a lingering fear. But, still, fair point.
- Like the liveries, this is possibly due to budget.
- Fair point.
- Let us consider the S1 adaption. Thomas brought James to Tidmouth Sheds, where Sir Topham Hatt praised the two. Isn't it possible that Thomas could have taken James to the works (And, in TAB, to the Steamworks) afterwards?

Simply curious.
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Re: Canon Discussion: Contradictions & Interpretations

Post by ThomasSirHandel on Sun Dec 27, 2015 2:11 am

Since this thread is about canon I think the events of Thomas Comes to Breakfast, Daisy, Bulls Eyes and Percy's Predicament take place after Thomas and the Missing Christmas Tree in canon order. This could explain why Daisy was absent from the Christmas party in Thomas and the Missing Christmas Tree because she didn't arrive yet and in the TV Series BoCo could of arrived before Daisy.
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Re: Canon Discussion: Contradictions & Interpretations

Post by Toz76 on Mon Dec 28, 2015 6:51 am

Additionally, I think Twin Engines and Branch Line Engines happened semi-concurrently, since the Scots are still black in Thomas Comes to Breakfast. I suspect it's something like this:
Hullo Twins!
The Missing Coach
Thomas Comes to Breakfast
Daisy
Break Van (honesty, this one can go anywhere between Missing Coach and Deputation)
Bulls Eyes
Percy's Predicament
The Deputation (Although Percy gets fixed awfully fast... switch the last two?)

Thoughts?
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Re: Canon Discussion: Contradictions & Interpretations

Post by Diesel 11 on Mon Dec 28, 2015 6:57 am

Toz76 wrote:Additionally, I think Twin Engines and Branch Line Engines happened semi-concurrently, since the Scots are still black in Thomas Comes to Breakfast. I suspect it's something like this:
Hullo Twins!
The Missing Coach
Thomas Comes to Breakfast
Daisy
Break Van (honesty, this one can go anywhere between Missing Coach and Deputation)
Bulls Eyes
Percy's Predicament
The Deputation (Although Percy gets fixed awfully fast... switch the last two?)

Thoughts?
It could also be that Donald and Douglas just hadn't been repainted yet.
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Re: Canon Discussion: Contradictions & Interpretations

Post by luctheminecrafter on Sat Jan 02, 2016 11:56 pm

Actually he doesn't get fixed too fast, it'd be already winter by the time he got back, and it looks like late summer to me.
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Re: Canon Discussion: Contradictions & Interpretations

Post by ThomasSirHandel on Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:32 am

I decided to make a timeline for the Duke and Skarloey Railway episodes from Season 4 to fix continuity errors for most of the cameos by Rheneas and Duke.

-Bulldog (narrow gauge scenes)
-You Can't Win
-Granpuff (narrow gauge scenes)
-A Bad Day for Sir Handel
-Peter Sam and the Refreshment Lady
-A few Years pass
-Sleeping Beauty (Putting this episode here because Skarloey and Rheneas take Duke home and Peter Sam has his old funnel at the end.)
-the beginning scene in Trucks!/Rusty Helps Peter Sam with Rheneas and Peter Sam at the station
-Rheneas is sent to the works for an overhaul
-Four Little Engines
-Skarloey is sent to the works
-The majority of Trucks!/Rusty Helps Peter Sam
-Skarloey returns
-Home at Last
-Rock 'n' Roll
-Special Funnel
-Sir Handel gets his "Steam Roller" wheels
-Passengers and Polish
-Gallant Old Engine (Rheneas returns)
-the last scene from "Special Funnel" where Peter Sam passes Skarloey and Rheneas
-Steam Roller (Putting this episode here because Rheneas appears even though Sir Handel got his "Steam Roller" wheels before Passengers and Polish.)
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Re: Canon Discussion: Contradictions & Interpretations

Post by TheIsraeliSudrian on Tue Mar 08, 2016 7:22 am

Nice work! It would've made far more sense to air these episodes in that order, if not in the order they were meant to be in the books.

Then again, why did James appear in Season 1 before his introduction?
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Re: Canon Discussion: Contradictions & Interpretations

Post by ThomasSirHandel on Tue Mar 08, 2016 7:29 am

James was obvious there before Thomas and the Breakdown Train/Thomas Saves the Day. At least TAB made a reason for James being there.
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Re: Canon Discussion: Contradictions & Interpretations

Post by MainLineEngine112 on Thu Jun 23, 2016 9:50 pm

I feel that the Modern Era (KOTR to present) is its own canon. It's currently in the early 70's. Just about everything in the Railway Series and Classic Series are still canon, with a few things changed. Most of S8-16 is non-canon, barring some elements and basic plot points that have been mentioned.

Here's a synopsis of the early years:

The Coffee Pots work on Sodor until c. 1913, until they slowly start to fall out of service, until 1915. At this point, Glynn is the only Coffee Pot still running. Edward then arrives. In c. 1920, Henry and Gordon arrive, at around the same time. James is built to work on Sodor in 1921. Shortly after his arrival, Glynn retires. Shortly thereafter, Henry starts using Welsh coal, until he has an accident, and is rebuilt, but when he returns in 1922, he becomes very paranoid, and is particularly concerned about weather, due to ice and snow having caused his accident. Thusly, he hides in a tunnel to avoid the rain. The Fat Controller then bricks up the tunnel as a punishment. This makes things harder on Edward, Gordon, and James. Eventually, Henry is let out, but The Fat Controller still decides he needs a new engine. He finds a tank engine who was built in 1921 on the LBSCR. The Fat Controller buys the engine, Thomas by name, in 1924, and he becomes the Knapford Station Pilot until 1925, when he rescues James and receives his own Branch Line.

After this, the events of James the Red Engine and Tank Engine Thomas Again occur. Then, in 1936, a new, experimental hybrid engine from the GWR named Percy arrives. After this, nothing recorded by either the TV or RWS happens until 1951, when Toby, who I say was built sometime 1900-1905, arrives. From this point onwards, it'd be really complicated, but basically, from 1950 to 1970, we have every RWS event up until that point, as well as everything in Season 2-7 and 17 onwards, including all specials within that frame, and some elements from S8-16, excluding some minor contradictions. Also, unless we get/have gotten confirmation otherwise, all RWS/Classic Series contradictions (when Henry and the Elephant happened) goes to the RWS canon. However, things like Smudger vs. Stanley or Skarloey Railway liveries follow Classic Series canon.

I get this is all very confusing, so if you have any questions, please ask!
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Re: Canon Discussion: Contradictions & Interpretations

Post by Guest on Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:59 am

The biggest contradiction for me is Henry needing special coal past season 1. I treat TV series and RWS separate universes, although I wish that seasons 1 - 7, 17 to present, and KOTR, TOTB, SLOTLT, and TGR to be canon, minus a few episodes from a few seasons.

Although I think that everything is canon.

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Re: Canon Discussion: Contradictions & Interpretations

Post by ThomasSirHandel on Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:13 pm

I do prefer the current timeline of the TV Series only including Seasons 2-7 and 17 onward in canon with the exception of having a few mentions from Seasons 8-16.

Here are a few things in my head canon:

-Thomas was built and arrived on Sodor in 1943. I don't really care when E2s were built in real time. This is just an alternate universe where E2s were built in the early 1940's in order to make Thomas younger than Gordon and Henry. 

-Percy was also built in 1943 but arrived a few years later after Thomas in 1947.

-James was built in 1942 and arrived shortly before Thomas.

-Gordon and Henry were built and arrived on Sodor in 1920.

-Edward was the first engine on the NWR in 1914.

-Toby was built in 1899 but arrived on Sodor (on his old branchline) in 1901 and was brought by Sir Topham Hatt in 1951 when the line closed.

-Henry's rebuilt occurred between 1950 and 1951.

-The Skarloey Railway follows it's canon from Seasons 4-5. Same with the liveries of the narrow gauge engines who also resemble their small scale model appearances.

-The Culdee Fell and the Arlesdale Railway follow their canons from the RWS.

-Smudger/Stanley will be treated as two separate characters in my canon even though in reality their suppose to be the same character.

-The majority of Season 1 will have occurred between 1946-1952. The Three Railway Engines based stories will be set in 1922 before Thomas arrived and also closer to the RWS.

-The events of Season 2 will have occurred during the mid 1950's.

-The events of Seasons 3-4 will have occurred between 1967-1970.

-Most other non-TV Series adapted RWS books will also be included in this head canon.
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