Canon Discussion: Contradictions & Interpretations

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Canon Discussion: Contradictions & Interpretations

Post by OneJ_ on Fri Jul 24, 2015 1:58 pm

This morning, I decided to go to Youtube and view the The Adventure Begins Trailer for the UK to get a taste of Thomas' new UK voice since I saw the US already. I read the comments of a bunch of arguments about the contradictions and things of that nature with the special judging the trailer since the comments were 4-6 months ago. The one issue that stuck out to me was Canon within the TVS. On this topic, I would like to know your own idea canon and why do you think it works best for the Thomas Universe. My canon is below:

The RWS and TVS are in one world. Seasons 1-8 and BMM/KOTR-Onwards are the only productions included from TV.
How? I just treat the The Adventure Begins and Season 1-4 adaptations as stories simply retold from the books.

Why?
1. I think it is more interesting than a bunch of universes.
2. It is confirmed that all TVS and RWS events are being incorporated thanks to the railway consultant.
3. RWS events, characters and locations are slowly coming to TV anyway, take the Small Railway for example.

List of TV Productions included
Season 1
Season 2
Season 3
Season 4
Season 5
Season 6/Jack and the Sodor Construction Company
Season 7
Season 8
The Great Discovery
Hero of the Rails
Blue Mountain Mystery
King of the Railway
Season 17
Tale of the Brave
Season 18
Season 19
Sodor's Legend of the Lost Treasure-Present
-Some elements from seasons 9-16 are also being taken as canon but ONLY the elements

So what is your canon and how do you feel about your own canon, my canon or even someone else's idea of canon in the entire franchise.


Last edited by OneJ_QuintupleA on Tue Aug 04, 2015 8:05 pm; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : Add Hero of the Rails)
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Re: Canon Discussion: Contradictions & Interpretations

Post by Toz76 on Fri Jul 24, 2015 2:31 pm

Quite frankly, I prefer to take everything as canon. It wastes so much time deciding what not to incorporate. When contradictions arise, I settle them on a case by case basis.
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Re: Canon Discussion: Contradictions & Interpretations

Post by Toby7 on Fri Jul 24, 2015 2:53 pm

Yes, I go with the official view on every thing being canon. HiT hasn't said otherwise. Of course, given that the show is meant for young children, the "canon" is not to be taken to seriously. Now though it seems like the team has made a recognizable effort to stay consistent which is great.

The railway series on the other hand has a clear and consistent canon. There were only two authors so things were never to complicated and contradictory.

Personally, I consider the books and the show all in the same canon. There may be some problems here and there but in the big picture it's not a huge deal and I don't feel like overthinking things like this. lol.
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Re: Canon Discussion: Contradictions & Interpretations

Post by Frankthetriviaman on Fri Jul 24, 2015 3:05 pm

Perfect contradictions:

In season one, Thomas and Gordon, Thomas went as fast as Gordon and hated it.

In season 5, Thomas and the jet engine, he "wished he could go as fast as Gordon." Despite that experience

In season 1 or 2 (?) Henry had a rebuild and no longer needed special coal

Yet look at all the times it came up seasons 7-16

In season 4- Duncan was accurately depicted as being a grumpy engine

So where did that cheerful smiling Duncan in seasons 10 and 11 come from?

And the big one:

Skarloey is old and wise

So why the heck would he ride the incline winch, love racing Rheneas and be scared of the wharf?
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Re: Canon Discussion: Contradictions & Interpretations

Post by OneJ_ on Fri Jul 24, 2015 3:41 pm

I was just watching Season 9 episode Toby Feels Left Out and do you know what I just noticed? The narrator says that Toby pulled Annie and Clarabel on Thomas' Branch Line, but yet they pass Bluff's Cove which is on Duck's Branch Line. Another contradiction.
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Re: Canon Discussion: Contradictions & Interpretations

Post by Frankthetriviaman on Fri Jul 24, 2015 3:50 pm

Another contradiction:

In Harvey's first episode, he's shown to be strong enough to lift Percy; and in season 17 he has no problem with Thomas

Yet in Edward strikes out, he has trouble lifting a single pipe
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Re: Canon Discussion: Contradictions & Interpretations

Post by JRCS on Fri Jul 24, 2015 4:01 pm

For me, the RWS is definitely a different canon.

The TV Series is an interesting one. The Adventure Begins is definitely in a different canon to S1. Maybe TAB was made to show that the current series is a different canon to the Classic Series, but then they want to include the RWS in that as well.

I am glad that the current era has decided to contradict S8-16 rather than S1-7 though.
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Re: Canon Discussion: Contradictions & Interpretations

Post by ThomasSirHandel on Fri Jul 24, 2015 5:04 pm

Both RWS and TV Series are different canons because Stepney's history is different, the Skarloey Railway is different, Mid Sodor is different, there's only one Sir Topham Hatt because the characters don't age in the TV Series. Also the TV Series is currently set between 1960's and 1980's while the RWS took place what ever year the book was published.

I think Calling All Engines is now non-canon because in The Adventure Begins, Tidmouth Sheds had seven spots and after Calling All Engines Diesel, 'Arry and Bert still teased the steam engines even though Calling All Engines said the diesels would work with the steam engines.

I think a majority of Seasons 9-16 is listed under non-canon now with a few exceptions like Rheneas and the Dinosaur and Pingy Pongy Pick Up but the events were most likely altered. But the rest of those seasons are non-canon. Thomas and the Magic Railroad could also easily be under a different canon.

Maybe in The Adventure Begins timeline Henry's crash happened before Thomas arrived and before Henry stopped in the tunnel. But it still would of made since to put Henry in his old shape and to keep the Classic Series and Season 17 onwards one timeline.
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Re: Canon Discussion: Contradictions & Interpretations

Post by railwayfan03 on Fri Jul 24, 2015 5:29 pm

I consider Seasons 8-16 (with exceptions to *Thomas and the Birthday Mail* and *A Blooming Mess*), as well as the specials *Calling All Engines*, *Misty island Rescue*, and *Day of the Diesels* to be non-canon all together.

EDIT: Okay, I suppose *The Great Discovery* could be considered canon, too.


Last edited by railwayfan03 on Fri Jul 24, 2015 6:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Canon Discussion: Contradictions & Interpretations

Post by ThomasSirHandel on Fri Jul 24, 2015 6:04 pm

The Great Discovery has to be canon because of Great Waterton and Stanley.

Misty Island Rescue and Day of the Diesels could be taken out because the Search and Rescue Centre, Belle and Flynn could be easily reintroduced in King of the Railway and Season 17. The Misty Island tunnel also clearly appears to be boarded up.

I was also debating the "extended" Railway Series could be a separate canon to the original Railway Series books. Thomas could of arrived after Edward, Henry, Gordon and James in both the original books and the Classic Series.
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Re: Canon Discussion: Contradictions & Interpretations

Post by OneJ_ on Fri Jul 24, 2015 6:27 pm

ThomasSirHandel wrote:The Great Discovery has to be canon because of Great Waterton and Stanley.

Misty Island Rescue and Day of the Diesels could be taken out because the Search and Rescue Centre, Belle and Flynn could be easily reintroduced in King of the Railway and Season 17. The Misty Island tunnel also clearly appears to be boarded up.

I was also debating the "extended" Railway Series could be a separate canon to the original Railway Series books. Thomas could of arrived after Edward, Henry, Gordon and James in both the original books and the Classic Series.

Thanks for reminding me about The Great Discovery. I had forgot about that special. I'll probably add Hero of the Rails to but it probably needs severe altering in order for me to add that special.
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Re: Canon Discussion: Contradictions & Interpretations

Post by SkarloeyRailway on Fri Jul 24, 2015 8:16 pm

Toby7 wrote:The railway series on the other hand has a clear and consistent canon.  There were only two authors so things were never to complicated and contradictory.

To be fair, there are some inconsistencies between the two. TIOS and RBTL give different dates for certain engine arivals, build dates, etc.. These are extremely minor though Razz
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Re: Canon Discussion: Contradictions & Interpretations

Post by Toby7 on Sun Jul 26, 2015 2:04 am

I have not read TIOS in full but even RBTL has some inconsistencies in itself. But I think it is safe to say that they are just errors.
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Re: Canon Discussion: Contradictions & Interpretations

Post by Tugboatfan4 on Sun Jul 26, 2015 2:35 am

I'm suprised no one mentions Hero of the Rails
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Re: Canon Discussion: Contradictions & Interpretations

Post by Frankthetriviaman on Sun Jul 26, 2015 4:40 am

Ah yes, big contradiction there;

The narrow gauge engines, Henry, Gordon, Edward and even Thomas are older than Hiro
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Re: Canon Discussion: Contradictions & Interpretations

Post by OneJ_ on Mon Jul 27, 2015 4:29 pm

Do any of you remember the episode Toby's New Whistle where Toby said he never used a whistle before, but Toby has used one a few times in Season 4. It is just obvious that he prefers using his bell.
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Re: Canon Discussion: Contradictions & Interpretations

Post by ThomasSirHandel on Wed Jul 29, 2015 6:59 am

Frankthetriviaman wrote:Ah yes, big contradiction there;

The narrow gauge engines, Henry, Gordon, Edward and even Thomas are older than Hiro

Hiro being older then Thomas doesn't really matter because their is no official time in the TV series.
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Re: Canon Discussion: Contradictions & Interpretations

Post by Frankthetriviaman on Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:05 am

True, but despite the "timeless" feel there are still contradictions throughout the series in terms of chronology
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Re: Canon Discussion: Contradictions & Interpretations

Post by OneJ_ on Tue Aug 04, 2015 6:32 am

Do you all know something fishy in Thomas and the Great Railway Show? In the story Museum Piece, James calls Thomas "old". However, the reason I found this puzzling is the very fact that James was likely built in 1912 according to his Wikia page. The earliest these engines were built was in 1909. Not only would this make him older than Thomas who was most likely built in 1915, but it would make him older than Toby by about 2 years. Yikes! Of course this overlaps with my "Age" thread but I thought it would be interesting to bring it up here in the Canon thread. Also, I have a theory that many of the engines including both Railway Series Engines and Television Series Engines might have either been built late or may have been a prototype like Gordon in the Thomas Franchise Canon.


Last edited by OneJ_QuintupleA on Tue Aug 04, 2015 7:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Canon Discussion: Contradictions & Interpretations

Post by ThomasSirHandel on Tue Aug 04, 2015 4:09 pm

Engines like Thomas were probably built later in the TV Series, which could be why Thomas arrived after Edward, Henry, Gordon and James. Hiro could be an early prototype which is why he was said to be older then most engines.

In my timeline I have Toby built around late 1800's-early 1900's.
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Re: Canon Discussion: Contradictions & Interpretations

Post by Doc Knickerbocker on Tue Aug 04, 2015 5:42 pm

ThomasSirHandel wrote:Engines like Thomas were probably built later in the TV Series, which could be why Thomas arrived after Edward, Henry, Gordon and James. Hiro could be an early prototype which is why he was said to be older then most engines.

In my timeline I have Toby built around late 1800's-early 1900's.
Most definitely. Toby seems to be as old as Edward.

When would Emily have been constructed? She does not seem to possess the wisdom of Edward and Toby, but old enough to be like a big sister to Thomas and Percy.
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Re: Canon Discussion: Contradictions & Interpretations

Post by OneJ_ on Tue Aug 04, 2015 8:04 pm

I am thinking about making a timeline that includes both RWS and TVS events. I will make altered dates (build dates and arrival dates) and will do my best trying to make dates for Seasons 5, 6, 7, 8, 17, 18, 19 and the specials. I am also interested in seeing your own timeline ideas.
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Re: Canon Discussion: Contradictions & Interpretations

Post by Doc Knickerbocker on Tue Aug 04, 2015 10:26 pm

I consider the Railway Series and TV Series to be different canons - Here is my interpretation of the Magic Railroad Sodor Canon.

(Note - Not only is this a separate canon, but Edward does not exist in this one.)

Sodor Timeline

1900 ~ Toby is built, and works in the harbors of England. (Note - the world Sodor is located in is an alternate universe - the geography and history of the world is the same as ours, the locomotives simply have faces.)
1911 ~ Toby arrives on the Isle, and is the first engine to work here. 
1920 ~ Henry and Gordon are built, and they arrive to the Isle.
1935 ~ James is built.
1936 ~ James arrives on the Isle.
1942/3 ~ Thomas is built.
1943 ~ Percy is built.
1944 ~ The engines arrive on the Isle. 
1965 ~ Gordon is temporarily withdrawn for overhaul; Lady arrives (This will be explained in the Shining Time Timeline).
1966 ~ Diesel 10 arrives, wrecks Lady.
1967 ~ Gordon returns to service.
1984 ~ Thomas and the Magic Railroad takes place.
1990 ~ Lady returns to Sudrian service.
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Re: Canon Discussion: Contradictions & Interpretations

Post by OneJ_ on Wed Aug 05, 2015 11:58 pm

Here is my own timeline of the TVS and RWS combined. Hope you guys enjoy it!

1829
-Stephenson's Rocket and Stephen are built.

1853
-The Sodor and Mainland Railway is built.

1864
-Skarloey and Talyllyn are built.

1865
-Skarloey arrives on Sodor for the opening of the Skarloey Railway.
-Rheneas is built and arrives on Sodor.
-Agnes, Ruth, Lucy, Jemima and Beatrice are built.

1870
-The Wellsworth-Suddery Railway is established.

1872
-The Mid Sodor Railway Company is formed.

1875
-Stepney is built.

1879
-Duke is built.

1880
-Duke is shipped to Sodor.
-The Mid Sodor Railway is opened.

1882
-Victoria and Helena are built.

1884
-Henrietta is built.

1894
-Bert is built.

1896
-Edward is built.
-Annie and Clarabel are built.

1897
-The construction of the Culdee Fell Mountain Rack Railway begins.

1899
-Donald and Douglas are built.

1900
-Godred, Ernest, Wilifred, Culdee and Shane Dooiney are built and arrive on Sodor.
-Their railway has opened.
-Godred is scrapped after a fall.

1901
-The Culdee Fell Railway reopens

1902
-Toby is built.

1904
-Falcon, now known as Sir Handel is built and arrives on Sodor. (EDIT 9/14/15)

1910
-The Tidmout, Knapford and Elsbridge Light Railway is opened.

1911
-The Reverend Awdry is born.

1914
-The North Western Raliway is formed from the other three different standard gauge railways.
-World War I begins.

1915
-NWR is built.
-Edward arrives.

1916
-The Tidmouth-Arlesburgh Branch is built.

1919
-Henry is built.

1920
Stuart, now known as Peter Sam is built for work on the Mid Sodor Railway.

1922
-Gordon is built.
-Henry arrives.

1923
-Gordon arrives.
-Rex is built.
-James is built, arrives and is overhauled.
-Thomas is built, arrives and is given his own branch line.
-Sir Topham Hatt becomes General Manager of the NWR.

1929
-Frank is built.
-Duck is built.

1934
-Oliver is built.

1935
-Henry is rebuilt.

1936
-Sir Topham Hatt becomes the managing director.

1938
-Mallard and Spencer are built.

1939
-World War II begins.

1940
-Christopher Awdry is born.

1948
-Bill and Ben are built.

1951
-Falcon and Stuart are sheeted.
-Toby and Henrietta arrive on Sodor.

1952
-Diesel is built.

(More to this timeline will be added soon! What do you think so far? I have changed a few dates here on purpose.)


Last edited by OneJ_QuintupleA on Tue Sep 15, 2015 1:31 am; edited 4 times in total
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Re: Canon Discussion: Contradictions & Interpretations

Post by Doc Knickerbocker on Thu Aug 06, 2015 12:45 am

Toby and Thomas' dates seem appropriate.
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Re: Canon Discussion: Contradictions & Interpretations

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